Mengzi and Xunzi

1
Mengzi and Xunzi
2
Mencius
371-289 BCE second sage of Confucianism contemp
orary of Zhuangzi

• ??

3
The Internal Confucian Debate on Human Nature

• Mengzi / Meng-tzu humans as moral agents
• Xunxi / Hsün-tzu human nature equated with
  self-interest
•  

4
Early Chinese Views of Human Nature

1. neither good nor evil (Gaozi)
2. equal parts of good and evil (a Han theory)
3. some persons good, some persons evil (Wang Chong)
4. evil (Xunzi)
5. good (Mencius)

5
Early Chinese Views of Human Nature

1. neither good nor evil (Gaozi)
2. equal parts of good and evil (a Han theory)
3. some persons good, some persons evil (Wang Chong)
4. evil (Xunzi)
5. good (Mencius)

6
Gaozi

• Gaozi said, Human nature is like swirling water.
  Open a passage to the east, and it flows east.
  Open a passage to the west, and it flows west.
  The basic indeterminacy of good and evil in human
  nature is just like the basic indeterminacy of
  east and west in the flow of water. (6.A.2)
• Water flowing west
  
  
  Water flowing east
• Does water flow east naturally? What is the
  analogy to human nature?

7

• Mencius said, Water certainly has no particular
  tendency to flow east or west, but can the same
  be said of flowing up or down? The basic
  goodness of human nature is just like the
  downward flow of water. There is no more a human
  being utterly lacking in goodness than there is
  such a thing as water that does not flow
  downward.
• VI.A.2

Does water flow down naturally? What is the
analogy to human nature?
Water flowing down
Water
flowing down
8
Can water flow up? What is the analogy to human
nature?

• Now, with my hands or my feet I can splash water
  over my head by channeling it, I can direct it
  all the way to the top of a hill. But is this
  the basic nature of water? No. These results
  are due to external force. The fact that people
  can be made to do evil reflects the same
  violation of their basic nature. (6.A.2)

9
Human nature is good

• Every person has the natural inclination to do
  good, and this natural inclination is ren
  (perfect co-humanity)
• What I mean by saying it is good is that there
  is that in our nature which is spontaneously part
  of us and can become good. The fact that we can
  become bad is not a defect in our natural
  endowment. (6.A.6. Eno translation)
• Quoting Mencius
• To be human (?) is to be co-human (?)

10

• Gaozi said Human nature is like a willow tree
  righteousness is like cups and bowls. To make
  human nature benevolent and righteous is like
  making a willow tree into cups and bowls.
  (6.A.1)
• Human nature Willow tree
• Benevolent Cups
• Righteous Bowls

11

• Human nature Willow tree
• Benevolent Cups
• Righteous Bowls
• Mengzi said Can you make cups and bowls from
  willow wood by following its natural grain or is
  it only after you have hacked the willow wood
  that you can make a cup or bowl?
• If you must hack the willow to make cups and
  bowls from it, must you hack people in order to
  make them humane and righteous?
• Answer to the question For Gaozi .
  For Mengzi.
• 6.A.1

12
Natural Goodness

• Humans all have the heart of compassion ????.
• Humans all have the heart of disdain for evil
  ????.
• Humans all have the heart of respect ????.
• Humans all have the heart of approval and
  disapproval ????. (6.A.6)

?? cè yin Compassion Concern
(Commiseration) ?? xiu è Disdain for evil --
Shame ?? gong jìng Respect Yielding
(Deference) ?? shì fei Approval and disapproval
-- Judgment
This is from ch. 6
13
This Heart defines human nature

• Clearly, one who did not have the heart of
  concern would be inhuman. One who did not have
  the heart of shame for wrong-doing would be
  inhuman. One who did not have the heart which
  places others before oneself would be inhuman.
  And one who did not have the heart which
  distinguishes between right and wrong would be
  inhuman."
• One who lacked a sense of dismay in such a case
  could simply not be a person. And I could further
  show that anyone who lacked the moral sense of
  shame could not be a person anyone who lacked a
  moral sense of deference could not be a person
  anyone who lacked a moral sense of right and
  wrong could not be a person. (Eno translation)
• (2.A.6)

This is from ch. 2
14
What do people have in common?

• ?????????
• ???,???
• ????????????
• ???????,???????
• Mencius (6.A.7 last paragraph)

15

• ?????????
• ???,???
• ????????????
• ???????,???????

16

• ?????????
• ???,???
• ????????????
• ???????,???????

17

• ?????????
• ???,???
• ????????????
• ???????,???????
• Eno translates this last paragraph of 6.A.7

18

• ?????????
• ???,???
• ????????????
• ???????,???????

19
???????,???????

• ??????,???????
• Righteousness and virtue delight my heart just
  like meat delights my mouth!
• ? yuè to please (like food, or music, or
  beauty)

chúhuàn ??????
20
The heart of goodness

• Mencius said All persons have a heart which
  cannot bear to see the suffering of others. The
  Sage Kings had such a heart, and their
  governments did not permit the suffering of the
  people. In ruling the kingdom, if you manifest
  this heart to implement such a government, you
  can hold the world in the palm of your hand.
• What I mean by saying that all persons have a
  heart which cannot bear to see the suffering of
  others is this
• Anyone who suddenly came upon a toddler about to
  fall into a well would have a heart of alarm and
  concern. And we cannot say that this heart
  arises from wanting to be favored by the parents,
  or from seeking the praise of one's friends and
  community, or from hoping to avoid a reputation
  for callousness.
• Clearly, one who did not have the heart of
  concern would be inhuman. One who did not have
  the heart of shame for wrong-doing would be
  inhuman. One who did not have the heart which
  places others before oneself would be inhuman.
  And one who did not have the heart which
  distinguishes between right and wrong would be
  inhuman.
• II.A.6 The Sprouts of Virtue

21
feelings as moral inclinations (the four
sprouts)

• 1. concern gives rise to jen/ren (co-humanity)
• 2. shame gives rise to yi (righteousness)
• 3. yielding gives rise to li (propriety)
• 4. judgment gives rise to chih/zhi (wisdom)
• Now the sense of dismay on anothers behalf is
  the seed of ren planted within us, the sense of
  shame is the seed of righteousness (yi), the
  sense of deference is the seed of li, and the
  sense of right and wrong is the seed of wisdom.
  Everyone possesses these four moral senses just
  as they possess their four limbs. (Eno
  translation)
•  

2.A.6 repeated at 6.A.6
22
The Developmental Aspect

• 1. concern gives rise to ren (co-humanity)
• 2. shame gives rise to yi (righteousness)
• 3. yielding gives rise to li (propriety)
• 4. judgment gives rise to zhi (wisdom)
•  

(Discussing evil kings with Gaozi) As for
their essence, they can become good. This is
what I mean by calling their natures good. As
for their not becoming good, this is not the
fault of their potential. (6.A.6)
23
feelings as moral inclinations (the four
sprouts)

• The heart of concern is the sprout of ren
  (benevolence). The heart of shame is the sprout
  of yi (righteousness). The heart of yielding is
  the sprout of li (propriety). The heart of
  judgment is the sprout of zhi (wisdom).
• Having these four sprouts is like having arms
  and legs. If you say that you cannot act upon
  them, you are discrediting yourself, just as if
  you say that a ruler cannot act upon them, you
  are discrediting his rule. Anyone who has these
  four sprouts within themselves knows how to
  develop them and perfect them they are like the
  initial spark of a fire, or the first waters of
  an open spring. If you can perfect them, you
  will be able to embrace the whole world with your
  virtue if you do not perfect them, you will not
  even be able to serve your own parents. (2.A.6)
• the force of these senses will burst through us
  like a wildfire first catching or a spring first
  bubbling forth through the ground (Eno
  translation)

24
Things people (including sages) have in common

• Mouths tastes
• Ears pleasure in listening
• Eyes standards of beauty
• Concern
• Shame
• Yielding
• Judgment
• Goodness?

25
The meaning of xing (?)

• ????????,??
• ???????,??
• (Zhuangzis swimmer ??)
• Having been born on land I am at ease on land
  that was originally in me.
• Having grown up in water, I am at ease in water
  that is my nature.

26
?

• Xing is not a superordinate and univocal
  principle that inheres in all human beings at
  brith. While there is a givenness to xing as an
  inherent organizing structure that persons in
  general develop after conception, it also
  suggests the dynamic process of becoming human
  (p. 189)

27
Metaphors for ? in Mencius

• Growing trees and animals
• Ripening grain
• Cultivating crops
• Flowing water

Strictly speaking, a person is not a sort of
being, but first and foremost a doing or making,
and only derivatively and retrospectively,
something done (ibid., p. 190)
28
So, why are some people evil?

• In years of plenty, most young men are lazy in
  years of poverty, most young men are cruel
  (6.A.7)
• The trees of Ox Mountain were once beautiful.
  But because it bordered on a large state,
  hatchets and axes besieged it. Could it remain
  verdant?... (6.A.8)
• Those who follow their greater part the heart
  become great humans. Those who follow their
  petty part the ears and eyes become petty
  humans (6.A.15)

29
Review

• What do people have in common? Goodness?
• If so, then why are some people evil?
• Following Zhuangzis definition of xing (?)
  (human nature), what does Mengzi mean when he
  says that human nature is good?
• What was Gaozis view, and how does Mengzis
  differ?

end
30
Xunzi

• ??

31

• 5. Against Physiognomy
• 9. The Regulations of a True King
• 17. Discourse on Heaven ??
• 19. Discourse on Ritual" ??
• 21. Undoing Fixation" ??
• 23. Human Nature is Bad ??

32
??

• 17. Discourse on Heaven

33
Strange Events

• Marvel at them but do not fear them
• Stars fall
• Trees make strange sounds
• The sun and moon are eclipsed
• Wind and rain do not come at their proper time
• Strange stars appear
• Marvel at them and fear them as well
• The plowing is poorly done and the crops suffer
• The weeding is badly done and the harvest fails
• The government is evil and loses the support of
  the people
• The fields are neglected and the crops badly
  tended
• Grain is being imported from abroad and sold at a
  high price
• People are starving and die by the roadside
• Government commands are unenlightened
• Public works are undertaken at the wrong season
• Agriculture is not properly attended to

such things occur once in a while with the
changes of Heaven and earth and the mutations of
yin and yang
portents such as these are born from
disorderthe reasons for their occurrence may be
found veryclose at hand
34
Prayer and Sacrifice

• ???,???????,?????????????,????,???????,??????,???
  ????????,????????????,???????
• One performs the rain sacrifice and it rains.
• then one will have ill fortune.

35

• ???,???????,?????????????,????,???????,??????,???
  ????????,????????????,???????
• You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I
  say No reason. Its as if you did not pray and
  it rained anyway.
• The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to
  save them.
• The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
• You divine before making a big decision.
• But nothing is accomplished from any of this
  they are performances (?).
• Thats why a junzi sees them as performances,
  while the common people see them as acts of
  the gods. To seem them as human performances
  is fortunate to see them as divine acts is
  unfortunate.

36

• ???,???????,?????????????,????,???????,??????,???
  ????????,????????????,???????
• You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I
  say No reason. Its as if you did not pray and
  it rained anyway.
• The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to
  save them.
• The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
• You divine before making a big decision.
• But nothing is accomplished from any of this
  they are performances (?).
• Thats why a junzi sees them as performances,
  while the common people see them as acts of
  the gods. To seem them as human performances
  is fortunate to see them as divine acts is
  unfortunate.

37

• ???,???????,?????????????,????,???????,??????,???
  ????????,????????????,???????
• You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I
  say No reason. Its as if you did not pray and
  it rained anyway.
• The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to
  save them.
• The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
• You divine before making a big decision.
• But nothing is accomplished from any of this
  they are performances (?).
• Thats why a junzi sees them as performances,
  while the common people see them as acts of
  the gods. To seem them as human performances
  is fortunate to see them as divine acts is
  unfortunate.

38

• ???,???????,?????????????,????,???????,??????,???
  ????????,????????????,???????
• You pray for rain and it rains. The reason? I
  say No reason. Its as if you did not pray and
  it rained anyway.
• The sun and the moon are eclipsed and you try to
  save them.
• The sun beats down and you pray for rain.
• You divine before making a big decision.
• But nothing is accomplished from any of this
  they are performances (?).
• Thats why a junzi sees them as performances,
  while the common people see them as acts of
  the gods. To seem them as human performances
  is fortunate to see them as divine acts is
  unfortunate.

39
Xunzis religious skepticism

• Always when people see ghosts, it is at times
  when they are aroused and excited, and they make
  their judgments in moments when their faculties
  are confused and blinded
• So what is the value and purpose of religious
  ritual?

40

• ????
• ????
• ????
• ??????

• Heaven has its time
• Earth has its material
• Man has his governance
• And thats calledforming a triad

41
?? ??

• 19. Discourse on Ritual 23. Human
  Nature is Bad

42
Mengzi and Xunzi

• Mencius feelings as moral inclinations (the
  four sprouts)
• Xunzi Human Nature is Bad (ch. 23)
• What is Xunzis line of argument in this essay?

43
Xunzis view of human nature

• ?????
• Man is born with desires
• What does Xunzi include among these yu?

?
44
Xunzis view of human nature

• ????,?????
• ? human nature
• ? artifice, ornament, intentional action,
  conscious action, deliberate effort

evil
good
??
45
??

• By nature, people are selfish. Without
  teachers and standards of conduct, they see
  things only in terms of benefit to themselves.
  And if the age in which they live is chaotic,
  they acquire its chaotic practices.
•  
• Hutton Peoples nature is such that they are
  born with a fondness for profit.

? ? ? ? ? ?
46

• ?????? The sage kings despised this chaos,
• ??????? and so they established the rites to
  differentiate them according to class,
• ????? to corral peoples desires,
• ???? and provide to them their proper
  satisfaction.

47
The Regulations of a True King (ch. 9)

• ?????,????????,??????

48

• Similarly, since mans nature is evil, it must
  wait for the instructions of a teacher before it
  can become upright, and for the guidance of
  ritual principles before it can become orderly.

• ?????
• ??
• ???
• ???
• ???
• ???

49

• Similarly, since mans nature is evil, it must
  wait for the instructions of a teacher before it
  can become upright, and for the guidance of
  ritual principles before it can become orderly.

• ?????
• ??
• ???
• ???
• ???
• ???

50

• Similarly, since mans nature is evil, it must
  wait for the instructions of a teacher before it
  can become upright, and for the guidance of
  ritual principles before it can become orderly.

• ?????
• ??
• ??? (fa)
• ??? (zheng)
• ???
• ???

51

• Similarly, since mans nature is evil, it must
  wait for the instructions of a teacher before it
  can become upright, and for the guidance of
  ritual principles before it can become orderly.

• ?????
• ??
• ???
• ???
• ??? (li-yi)
• ??? (zhi)

52
Rites!

• Clothing
• Deportment
• Attitude
• Implements
• Offerings
• Gestures

• Similarly, since mans nature is evil, it must
  wait for the instructions of a teacher before it
  can become upright, and for the guidance of
  ritual principles before it can become orderly.

53
Becoming good

• Warped wood
• Blunt metal

• Laid against a straightening board
• Steamed
• Forced into shape
• Whetted on a grindstone
• Sharpened

54

• end

55
Differentiation

• Water and fire possess qi, but they are
  inanimate.
• Plants and trees are animate, but they lack
  consciousness.
• Birds and beasts have consciousness, but they are
  amoral.
• Persons have qi, animation, consciousness, and a
  sense of morality, and that is why we are the
  noblest beings in the world.
• We are not as strong as oxen or as swift as
  horses, and yet they are used by us. Why?
  Because we form societies and they do not.
• Why are we able to form societies? Because we
  differentiate among ourselves.
• And how are we able to differentiate among
  ourselves? With morality.
• If morality is the basis for social
  differentiation, there will be harmony
• if there is harmony, there will be unity
• if there is unity, there will be power
• if there is power, there will be strength
• if there is strength, there will be the ability
  to have dominion over all things.
• That is why we live secure in palaces and houses.

56
queries

• A Discussion of Rites

• Human Nature is Evil

1. What is the relationship between rites and
   desires? What is the effect of ritual upon
   desire?
2. What is the relationship between rites and
   emotions (devotion, longing, depression,
   melancholy, grief, loyalty, faith, love,
   respect)?
3. Do funeral rites affect the dead? What then is
   their purpose?

1. What are the components of human nature?
2. What are the consequences of the public
   expression of natural tendencies?
3. What is goodness? How is it attained? What
   kinds of people are good, and why?
4. What are the origins of the means by which
   goodness is attained?
5. How are human nature and Heaven related?